Acronyms in modern languages (other than English)

Post by retrosorter
The first citation of "acronym" in the OED is only 1940, yet Talmudic
Hebrew uses them at least as far back as the Middle Ages. This makes me
wonder when they are first found in other modern languages.

1
This is a NG about *translation*, not one about any subject about different
languages, so strictly speaking you are OT [Off Topic].

2
Talmudic Hebrew is and was not a 'living' language as it was not spoken as a
vernacular in Talmudic times.

3
Latin and Greek are not 'dead' languages as their modern counterparts are
still spoken, be it that the Latin ones have different names.

4
Acronyms were common in Latin of the classic period, examples here:
<https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronymum> and in the Greek of that time,
and in mideaval Hebrew ["Rashei Teivos"]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_abbreviations>

5
In the OED, dated 1895:
SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States),
POTUS (President of the United States),
so what about 1940, Alternate Facts???

--
Evertjan.
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Hen Hanna

2017-03-21 23:23:53 UTC

retrosorter <
5
SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States),
POTUS (President of the United States),
so what about 1940, Alternate Facts???
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.

POTUS -- I can't find a 19C use in Google books.

... It was not the shekar, or "strong drink" (potus inebrians), to which wine-drinking in its later stages always leads. These are only referred to for ...

POTUS (n.) wire service acronym for president of the United States (or President of the United States), occasionally used outside wire transmissions by those seeking to establish journalistic credibility, a survival from the Phillips Code, created 1879 by U.S. journalist Walter P. Phillips to speed up transmission by Morse code, but obsolete from c. 1940 with the widespread use of teletype machines. Other survivals include SCOTUS for "Supreme Court of the United States."

Evertjan.

2017-03-21 23:37:55 UTC

Post by Hen Hanna

retrosorter <
5
SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States),
POTUS (President of the United States),
so what about 1940, Alternate Facts???
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.

POTUS -- I can't find a 19C use in Google books.

I don't think Google books is good evidence for the negative.

1895 Birmingham (Alabama) Age-Herald 14 Apr. 21/3
"In addition the more frequent phrases are skeletonized to the limit of
safety. Scotus is supreme court of the United States; potus,
president of the United States."

Post by Hen Hanna
... It was not the shekar, or "strong drink" (potus inebrians), to which
wine-drinking in its later stages always leads. These are only referred
to for ...
POTUS (n.) wire service acronym for president of the United States (or
President of the United States), occasionally used outside wire
transmissions by those seeking to establish journalistic credibility, a
survival from the Phillips Code, created 1879 by U.S. journalist Walter
P. Phillips to speed up transmission by Morse code, but obsolete from c.
1940 with the widespread use of teletype machines. Other survivals
include SCOTUS for "Supreme Court of the United States."

--
Evertjan.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-03-30 19:33:25 UTC

Latin only marginally survives as the Neo-Latin of the Catholic Church
and even that is dropping out of usage. Speakers of the descendants of
Latin, the Romance languages, don't think of themselves as speaking
Latin, and no one Romance language is considered the true heir.
Language survival is mostly about social atitudes. That is why we say
Greek survives but Latin doesn't. Welcome to sociolinguistics.

Post by Evertjan.
4
<https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronymum> and in the Greek of that time,
and in mideaval Hebrew ["Rashei Teivos"]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_abbreviations>
5
SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States),
POTUS (President of the United States),
so what about 1940, Alternate Facts???

Evertjan.

2017-03-30 21:23:34 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Latin and Greek are not 'dead' languages as their modern counterparts are
still spoken, be it that the Latin ones have different names.

Well, one can use definitions and then anything goes.

--
Evertjan.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-03-31 05:47:53 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Latin and Greek are not 'dead' languages as their modern counterparts are
still spoken, be it that the Latin ones have different names.

Well, one can use definitions and then anything goes.

It's more than just definitions. It's social reality.

Code switching betweeen Demotic and Classical Greek is not so
unacceptable, as Katherovousa (an ill defined compromise) shows. But
people don't code switch between Latin and say French. The boundaries
are well defined.

Evertjan.

2017-03-31 09:56:30 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Well, one can use definitions and then anything goes.

It's more than just definitions. It's social reality.

There is only reality, there are no shades of that, even in a multiverse.

The truth is a valid declaration about this reality.

Definitions are not true or false,
they are just labels, only meant to be mutually accepted.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Code switching betweeen Demotic and Classical Greek is not so
unacceptable, as Katherovousa (an ill defined compromise) shows.

I doubt that.

Well, the Athens papers written in katharevousa ["conceived in the early
19th century as a compromise between Ancient Greek and the Demotic Greek of
the time"] in the early 1960s were easily readable to me with my school-
classic-and-Homeric-Greek. Demotika and its local dialects took much more
effort.

However, Modern Greek being a [partly] artificial language, like Indonesian,
modern Hebrew, etc., while Italian, Spanish, Rumanian are not [or much less
so].

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
But
people don't code switch between Latin and say French. The boundaries
are well defined.

There are no bounderies here but the passing of time, there was no Latin
speaking parents giving birth to an Italian speaking child.

--
Evertjan.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-02 08:30:41 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Well, one can use definitions and then anything goes.

It's more than just definitions. It's social reality.

There is only reality, there are no shades of that, even in a multiverse.
The truth is a valid declaration about this reality.

There is no "truth" here. There are perceptions. The natural unit is an
idiolect. The rest is sociology.

"A language" is a social construct. So it is about perceptions of
reality.

Haven't you heard the adage "A language is a dialect with an army and a
navy".

Post by Evertjan.
Definitions are not true or false,
they are just labels, only meant to be mutually accepted.

Exactly.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Code switching betweeen Demotic and Classical Greek is not so
unacceptable, as Katherovousa (an ill defined compromise) shows.

I doubt that.
Well, the Athens papers written in katharevousa ["conceived in the early
19th century as a compromise between Ancient Greek and the Demotic Greek of
the time"] in the early 1960s were easily readable to me with my school-
classic-and-Homeric-Greek. Demotika and its local dialects took much more
effort.
However, Modern Greek being a [partly] artificial language, like Indonesian,
modern Hebrew, etc., while Italian, Spanish, Rumanian are not [or much less
so].

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
But
people don't code switch between Latin and say French. The boundaries
are well defined.

There are no bounderies here but the passing of time, there was no Latin
speaking parents giving birth to an Italian speaking child.

I agree the boundary was once fuzzy.

Evertjan.

2017-04-02 09:02:10 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
It's more than just definitions. It's social reality.

There is only reality, there are no shades of that, even in a multiverse.
The truth is a valid declaration about this reality.

There is no "truth" here. There are perceptions. The natural unit is an
idiolect. The rest is sociology.

You are just introducing labels.

Labels are not sociology.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"A language" is a social construct.

Not so, languages are not constructed,
only artificial ones [Esperanto, Modern Greek, Modern Hebrew, etc] are and
then only partly, as they are build on older memes like the rest, and
immediately start to evolve by usage.

Even computer-languages evolve, as sometimes the errors made in the
definitions or the implementations/rendering machines are becoming so
important the correction of the implementations is out of the question.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
So it is about perceptions of reality.

If you say so, but I disagree, it is not.

Truth is not the perception of reality.

Natural languages are, in my definition, compound memes,
the result of natural selection in the interaction of brains trough their
natural and artificial interfaces.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Haven't you heard the adage "A language is a dialect with an army and a
navy".

An addagium?

I would say it is a translation of a Yiddish quote:

"An shprach iez an dialekt mit ane armej un an flot."

said by Max Weinreich, the Latvian "sociolinguist" [sic ;-) ].

--
Evertjan.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-02 10:28:28 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
It's more than just definitions. It's social reality.

There is only reality, there are no shades of that, even in a multiverse.
The truth is a valid declaration about this reality.

There is no "truth" here. There are perceptions. The natural unit is an
idiolect. The rest is sociology.

You are just introducing labels.
Labels are not sociology.

They are when done by social groups.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"A language" is a social construct.

Not so, languages are not constructed,

An entirely different issue.

Post by Evertjan.
only artificial ones [Esperanto, Modern Greek, Modern Hebrew, etc] are and
then only partly, as they are build on older memes like the rest, and
immediately start to evolve by usage.
Even computer-languages evolve, as sometimes the errors made in the
definitions or the implementations/rendering machines are becoming so
important the correction of the implementations is out of the question.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
So it is about perceptions of reality.

If you say so, but I disagree, it is not.
Truth is not the perception of reality.

Labeling a speech form a "language" rather than a "dialect" or
something else or seperate from another is something is done by
society. It is a categorization of reality not reality itself.

Post by Evertjan.
Natural languages are, in my definition, compound memes,
the result of natural selection in the interaction of brains trough their
natural and artificial interfaces.

You are talking something else.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Haven't you heard the adage "A language is a dialect with an army and a
navy".

An addagium?
"An shprach iez an dialekt mit ane armej un an flot."
said by Max Weinreich, the Latvian "sociolinguist" [sic ;-) ].

Exactly.

Evertjan.

2017-04-02 20:53:35 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"A language" is a social construct.

Not so, languages are not constructed,

An entirely different issue.

So a construct is not something that is constructed?

Or do you mean "A language" is a label?
Why would you call a label a "social construct"?

--
Evertjan.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-03 03:43:15 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"A language" is a social construct.

Not so, languages are not constructed,

An entirely different issue.

So a construct is not something that is constructed?
Or do you mean "A language" is a label?
Why would you call a label a "social construct"?

"Social construct" means developed out of social norms, something
reflecting social norms.

Example: During the era of Yugoslavia there was Serbo-Croatian. Now
there is Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Montonegrin.

If you are going to respond, respond only if you have something to say
that is substantial. Not just to have the last word. Better yet, carry
the thread over to sci.lang

Evertjan.

2017-04-03 08:25:57 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Example: During the era of Yugoslavia there was Serbo-Croatian. Now
there is Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Montonegrin.

They "were" not, they are just labels.

Do they "have" armies and navys?

And labels are just tamporal definitions in a discusssion.

By applying the word "social" you probally think labeldefinitions become
part of reality, which I would deplore.

btw, the same holds for "English" as a label.

--
Evertjan.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-03 16:58:03 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Example: During the era of Yugoslavia there was Serbo-Croatian. Now
there is Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Montonegrin.

They "were" not, they are just labels.

Whatever "post-modern" crap you are into I don't care.

The whole point is what you call "labels".

Post by Evertjan.
Do they "have" armies and navys?
And labels are just tamporal definitions in a discusssion.
By applying the word "social" you probally think labeldefinitions become
part of reality, which I would deplore.
btw, the same holds for "English" as a label.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

Evertjan.

2017-04-03 20:17:15 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Whatever "post-modern" crap you are into I don't care.

So I should care what crap you are into?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
The whole point is what you call "labels".

If you say so.

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Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-03 23:34:48 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Whatever "post-modern" crap you are into I don't care.

So I should care what crap you are into?

Why should I care about anything about you!!!

Feel free not to care about me and shut up!

Obviously you are not interested in a serious discousion or learning
anything. You have turned this into a pissing contest.

If you are serious, post in sci.lang

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
The whole point is what you call "labels".

If you say so.

Evertjan.

2017-04-04 07:45:20 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Whatever "post-modern" crap you are into I don't care.

So I should care what crap you are into?

Why should I care about anything about you!!!

You started this ad hominem "I don't care",
I was only mirroring it to show how vile that is.

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-03 03:51:47 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"A language" is a social construct.

Not so, languages are not constructed,

An entirely different issue.

So a construct is not something that is constructed?
Or do you mean "A language" is a label?
Why would you call a label a "social construct"?

"Social construct" means reflecting social norms.

Classification of languages is tied to social norms.

Example: In the era of Yugoslavia there was Serbo-Croatian.

Now there is Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Montenegrın.

Respond only if you have something substantial to say. Not with
sophistry just to have the last word. Better yet, carry the discussion
over to sc.lang

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-02 08:31:45 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Latin and Greek are not 'dead' languages as their modern counterparts are
still spoken, be it that the Latin ones have different names.

Well, one can use definitions and then anything goes.

This is about social perceptions, so how society defines it is
relevant.

Evertjan.

2017-04-02 08:41:55 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Well, one can use definitions and then anything goes.

This is about social perceptions,

Why? That seems to be just your perception of this discussion.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
so how society defines it is relevant.

Even if it did, why should it be? That seems to be just your perception.

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
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Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-02 10:31:08 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Well, one can use definitions and then anything goes.

This is about social perceptions,

Why? That seems to be just your perception of this discussion.

Labeling something a seperate language is done by society.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
so how society defines it is relevant.

Even if it did, why should it be? That seems to be just your perception.

No, I am introducing you to sociolinguistics.

Carry this discussion to sci.lang to get more feedback.

Evertjan.

2017-04-02 20:57:11 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Why? That seems to be just your perception of this discussion.

Labeling something a seperate language is done by society.

Not at all.

Labeling can be done by just temporarily defining it for the sake of an
argument.

You would have to define "society" and "social",
as "asocial" is not from "asociety", for instance,
so your try to set a labeling as an accepted fact gets you nowhere.

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-04-03 03:33:40 UTC

Post by Evertjan.
Why? That seems to be just your perception of this discussion.

Labeling something a seperate language is done by society.

Not at all.
Labeling can be done by just temporarily defining it for the sake of an
argument.
You would have to define "society" and "social",
as "asocial" is not from "asociety", for instance,
so your try to set a labeling as an accepted fact gets you nowhere.

P L E A S E let us not get into sophistry and end up by arguing "define
definition"

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-03-30 19:39:09 UTC

Under the modern name "Mishnaic Hebrew" it had some currency as being
marginally spoken in Palestine until about 2nd cent. CE

Post by Evertjan.
3
Latin and Greek are not 'dead' languages as their modern counterparts are
still spoken, be it that the Latin ones have different names.
4
<https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronymum> and in the Greek of that time,
and in mideaval Hebrew ["Rashei Teivos"]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_abbreviations>
5
SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States),
POTUS (President of the United States),
so what about 1940, Alternate Facts???

retrosorter

2017-03-10 15:02:10 UTC