Discussion:
niochon
(too old to reply)
retrosorter
2005-04-20 15:10:17 UTC
Permalink
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
Does it derive from the word "nichon?"
Ben Mercier
2005-04-20 15:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
Does it derive from the word "nichon?"
No, it does not.
Nichons = titties and it's not used in Quebec.
Niochon = dumbass

I don't see any link between niochon and something else.
You'll have to dig very deep if you want to find the etymology and I'm not
even sure that it's documented.


Ben
John Woodgate
2005-04-20 19:38:46 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.lang.translation that Ben Mercier
Post by Ben Mercier
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
Does it derive from the word "nichon?"
No, it does not.
Nichons = titties and it's not used in Quebec.
Niochon = dumbass
I don't see any link between niochon and something else.
You'll have to dig very deep if you want to find the etymology and I'm not
even sure that it's documented.
I had an opportunity to discuss this with my Quebecois colleague in
Eindhoven on Monday. He said that 'niochon' is an old word that isn't
used much now. He didn't connect it with 'nichon', but 'tit-head',
meaning 'niochon', is a British English complimentary epithet. It's
probably very old, but has been revived by association with the Human
Resources term 'titular head'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Jedtere Avilis
2005-04-20 15:22:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile."
Yes, it is equivalent. Except that you spell it wrong. It is supposed to
be "gnochon" instead of "niochon." But, of course, this isn't your mistake.
i presume that you retyped the way you saw it. Here, in Quebec, most of
Quebeccers arent able to write down a sentence without doing a bunch of
horrible mistakes. Some call this "lame minds" while i call it "lame
schools" :o)
Post by retrosorter
Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
i dont recall
Post by retrosorter
Does it derive from the word "nichon?"
Not at all.
Anne
2005-04-20 16:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
Voilà qui est intéressant. Le mot semble dériver de /gnioche/.
Post by retrosorter
Does it derive from the word "nichon?"
Ça m'étonnerait.

Je fais suivre où vous aurez plus de chances de trouver une réponse :
Fu2 fllf
--
Anne
Peter Wells
2005-04-21 05:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
Does it derive from the word "nichon?"
I can't speak for Quebec, but in France there are a number of
localisms for an idiot that start with the "ni" sound; offhand I can
think of niant and niart, but there are others.

My understanding was that these were related to "niais". That might be
a possible avenue to explore for the Québécois etymology.


only one p in my real address / un seul p dans ma véritable adresse
Lanarcam
2005-04-21 06:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wells
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
Does it derive from the word "nichon?"
I can't speak for Quebec, but in France there are a number of
localisms for an idiot that start with the "ni" sound; offhand I can
think of niant and niart, but there are others.
My understanding was that these were related to "niais". That might be
a possible avenue to explore for the Québécois etymology.
I found this thanks to Anne link:
gnioche, gnougne s. f.
Femme niaise, benête. Je vous promets qu'elle avait oublié d'être
gnioche... (Almanach).
Patois gniouchi, de ignare ?
(Patois de Lyon)

I wonder what the equivalent is for men ...
Mary Cassidy
2005-04-21 23:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lanarcam
gnioche, gnougne s. f.
Femme niaise, benête. Je vous promets qu'elle avait oublié d'être
gnioche... (Almanach).
Patois gniouchi, de ignare ?
(Patois de Lyon)
It somewhat resembles the Italian "gnocca" (rude word for part of the
female anatomy) which I assume is related in turn to gnocco/gnocchi, of
Lombard origin.
--
Mary
Georges Dufoux
2005-04-22 09:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lanarcam
gnioche, gnougne s. f.
Femme niaise, ben=EAte. Je vous promets qu'elle avait oubli=E9 d'=EAtre
gnioche... (Almanach).
Patois gniouchi, de ignare ?
(Patois de Lyon)
I wonder what the equivalent is for men ...
From the Glossaire des gones de Lyon (Ad. Vachet, 1907):
GNIOCHE.- Niais, embarrassé, imbécile: Il est trop gnioche. Vous
faites une
mine si gnioche.
So a man can be 'gnioche'. Gnoche and nioche would have the same
pronunciation.
Phonostylistically: Ni- suggests nigaud and niais.
Gni- suggests gnangnan and gnognotte.
-Oche is pejorative: moche, boche, belle-doche,
mioche.
-On is a diminutive: maigrichon, greluchon,
patachon.
Which makes three reasons for the word to be understood by any
Frenchman but does not explain why it went as far as Quebec whose
language was influenced by dialects of the WEST of France.
Yves Euld?de
2005-04-26 11:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lanarcam
I wonder what the equivalent is for men ...
Gniochon (ou niochon ou gnochon), natürlich !
Lanarcam
2005-04-26 12:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yves Euld?de
Post by Lanarcam
I wonder what the equivalent is for men ...
Gniochon (ou niochon ou gnochon), natürlich !
According to Mary's hypothesis, that would have a different
connotation, but you you are probably right, la boucle est
bouclée.

Jean Dufresne
2005-04-22 01:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wells
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
I can't speak for Quebec, but in France there are a number of
localisms for an idiot that start with the "ni" sound; offhand I can
think of niant and niart, but there are others.
My understanding was that these were related to "niais". That might be
a possible avenue to explore for the Québécois etymology.
Looking for "niochon" on the web, I found this example of the
inventiveness that court translators must sometimes display when
translating the words of some witnesses. This is an except of a
judgment by the Supreme Court of Canada, in the case of B.K. (Appellant)
v. Her Majesty The Queen (Respondent), where the appellant appealed the
decision of a judge who had found him guilty of comtempt of court. The
original text is in English. The French text, below it, is the
translation. The translator transposed the English swear words to
French Canadian ones. He/She must have had some fun working on that
assignment. :)

------------------

"(...)

Factual Background

The appellant was subpoenaed as a Crown witness to a preliminary inquiry
involving a charge of attempted murder against two other accused. The
victim was also subpoenaed but failed to attend the preliminary inquiry.
The appellant attended the preliminary inquiry but refused to be sworn
as a witness. In expressing his refusal to testify, the appellant was
insolent and abusive towards the presiding judge as the following
transcript of events reflects:

CLERK: Mr. K., do you want to step into the witness box, please.

B.K.: Okay.

CLERK: You have to stand up to be sworn.

B.K.: Oh, fuck.

CLERK: Please take the Bible in your right hand. Please state your full
name for the Court.

B.K.: B.C.K.

CLERK: Spell your last name.

B.K.: K.

CLERK: Do you swear that the evidence you shall give touching the
matters in question shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth so help you God?

B.K.:Fuck it, man, I ain't testifying.

COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

B.K.: I ain't testifying, man. Fucking charge me. Whatever you fucking
want, man. I ain't testifying.

According to the presiding judge, in his report to the Saskatchewan
Court of Appeal, the appellant then threw the Bible on the floor
immediately in front of the witness box, sat down in the box, sat back,
crossed his arms and put his foot up on the railing of the witness box.
Following this behaviour, the judge stated:

COURT: I find you guilty of contempt of in the face of this Court.

B.K.: Up yours, you dick.

COURT: And I sentence you to a period of incarceration of six months
consecutive to any --

B.K.: Fuck you, you goof.

COURT: ...time now being served.

B.K.: Goof.

COURT: Get him out of here.

B.K.: Fucking goof.

FIELD: I think that my case has not been advanced much by that witness's
attendance.

COURT: That would seem to be the case.

FIELD: And I have no further evidence to call.

COURT: All right. Do you wish to address any argument?

NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE

COURT: With respect to this Information 1870787 I hereby discharge both
accused.

(...)"

----------------------

"(...)

Les faits

L'appelant a été assigné à comparaître, en tant que témoin du ministère
public, à une enquête préliminaire concernant une accusation de
tentative de meurtre portée contre deux autres accusés. La victime avait
également été assignée, mais elle ne s'est pas présentée à l'enquête
préliminaire. L'appelant a comparu, mais il a refusé d'être assermenté
comme témoin. Lorsqu'il a exprimé son refus de déposer, l'appelant s'est
montré grossier et insolent envers le juge présidant l'enquête
préliminaire, comme en témoigne la transcription suivante des débats:

[TRADUCTION]

LE GREFFIER: B. K., présentez-vous à la barre des témoins, s'il vous
plaît.

B.K.: O.K.

LE GREFFIER: Vous devez vous lever pour prêter serment.

B.K.: Ah! Câlice!

LE GREFFIER: Veuillez tenir la Bible dans votre main droite. Veuillez
donner votre nom au complet à la Cour.

B.K.: B.C.K.

LE GREFFIER: Épelez votre nom de famille.

B.K.: K.

LE GREFFIER: Jurez-vous que le témoignage que vous allez rendre sur
l'affaire en question sera la vérité, toute la vérité et rien que la
vérité? Que Dieu vous soit en aide.

B.K.: Va chier. Moi, j'témoigne pas.

LA COUR: Je suis désolé, je ne vous ai pas entendu.

B.K.: J'témoigne pas. Accuse moi si tu veux, crisse. Fais ce que tu
veux. Moi, j'témoigne pas.

Selon le rapport transmis à la Cour d'appel par le juge qui présidait
l'enquête préliminaire, l'appelant a ensuite lancé la Bible par terre,
devant la barre des témoins, puis il s'est assis, les bras croisés, le
dos contre le banc et les pieds appuyés sur la balustrade. À la suite de
ce comportement, le juge a déclaré ceci:

[TRADUCTION]

LA COUR:Je vous déclare coupable d'outrage commis en présence de la
Cour.

B.K.: Dans l'cul, maudit niochon.

LA COUR: Et je vous condamne à une peine d'emprisonnement de six mois à
purger consécutivement à toute --

B.K.: Va chier.

LA COUR: ... que vous purgez présentement.

B.K.: Épais.

LA COUR: Emmenez-le d'ici.

B.K.: Hostie d'épais.

FIELD: Je pense que la comparution de ce témoin n'a pas beaucoup aidé ma
cause.

LA COUR: Ça semble effectivement avoir été le cas.

FIELD: Je n'ai pas d'autre témoignage à présenter.

LA COUR: D'accord. Désirez-vous présenter quelque argument?

AUCUNE RÉPONSE AUDIBLE

LA COUR: En ce qui concerne la dénonciation no 1870787, je libère les
deux accusés.

(...)"

----------------------------
--
Jean
Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
2005-04-22 12:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean Dufresne
Post by Peter Wells
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
I can't speak for Quebec, but in France there are a number of
localisms for an idiot that start with the "ni" sound; offhand I can
think of niant and niart, but there are others.
My understanding was that these were related to "niais". That might be
a possible avenue to explore for the Québécois etymology.
Looking for "niochon" on the web, I found this example of the
inventiveness that court translators must sometimes display when
translating the words of some witnesses. This is an except of a
judgment by the Supreme Court of Canada, in the case of B.K. (Appellant)
v. Her Majesty The Queen (Respondent), where the appellant appealed the
decision of a judge who had found him guilty of comtempt of court. The
original text is in English. The French text, below it, is the
translation. The translator transposed the English swear words to
French Canadian ones. He/She must have had some fun working on that
assignment. :)
------------------
"(...)
Factual Background
The appellant was subpoenaed as a Crown witness to a preliminary inquiry
involving a charge of attempted murder against two other accused. The
victim was also subpoenaed but failed to attend the preliminary inquiry.
The appellant attended the preliminary inquiry but refused to be sworn
as a witness. In expressing his refusal to testify, the appellant was
insolent and abusive towards the presiding judge as the following
CLERK: Mr. K., do you want to step into the witness box, please.
B.K.: Okay.
CLERK: You have to stand up to be sworn.
B.K.: Oh, fuck.
CLERK: Please take the Bible in your right hand. Please state your full
name for the Court.
B.K.: B.C.K.
CLERK: Spell your last name.
B.K.: K.
CLERK: Do you swear that the evidence you shall give touching the
matters in question shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth so help you God?
B.K.:Fuck it, man, I ain't testifying.
COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
B.K.: I ain't testifying, man. Fucking charge me. Whatever you fucking
want, man. I ain't testifying.
According to the presiding judge, in his report to the Saskatchewan
Court of Appeal, the appellant then threw the Bible on the floor
immediately in front of the witness box, sat down in the box, sat back,
crossed his arms and put his foot up on the railing of the witness box.
COURT: I find you guilty of contempt of in the face of this Court.
B.K.: Up yours, you dick.
COURT: And I sentence you to a period of incarceration of six months
consecutive to any --
B.K.: Fuck you, you goof.
COURT: ...time now being served.
B.K.: Goof.
COURT: Get him out of here.
B.K.: Fucking goof.
FIELD: I think that my case has not been advanced much by that witness's
attendance.
COURT: That would seem to be the case.
FIELD: And I have no further evidence to call.
COURT: All right. Do you wish to address any argument?
NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE
COURT: With respect to this Information 1870787 I hereby discharge both
accused.
(...)"
----------------------
"(...)
Les faits
L'appelant a été assigné à comparaître, en tant que témoin du ministère
public, à une enquête préliminaire concernant une accusation de
tentative de meurtre portée contre deux autres accusés. La victime avait
également été assignée, mais elle ne s'est pas présentée à l'enquête
préliminaire. L'appelant a comparu, mais il a refusé d'être assermenté
comme témoin. Lorsqu'il a exprimé son refus de déposer, l'appelant s'est
montré grossier et insolent envers le juge présidant l'enquête
[TRADUCTION]
LE GREFFIER: B. K., présentez-vous à la barre des témoins, s'il vous
plaît.
B.K.: O.K.
LE GREFFIER: Vous devez vous lever pour prêter serment.
B.K.: Ah! Câlice!
LE GREFFIER: Veuillez tenir la Bible dans votre main droite. Veuillez
donner votre nom au complet à la Cour.
B.K.: B.C.K.
LE GREFFIER: Épelez votre nom de famille.
B.K.: K.
LE GREFFIER: Jurez-vous que le témoignage que vous allez rendre sur
l'affaire en question sera la vérité, toute la vérité et rien que la
vérité? Que Dieu vous soit en aide.
B.K.: Va chier. Moi, j'témoigne pas.
LA COUR: Je suis désolé, je ne vous ai pas entendu.
B.K.: J'témoigne pas. Accuse moi si tu veux, crisse. Fais ce que tu
veux. Moi, j'témoigne pas.
Selon le rapport transmis à la Cour d'appel par le juge qui présidait
l'enquête préliminaire, l'appelant a ensuite lancé la Bible par terre,
devant la barre des témoins, puis il s'est assis, les bras croisés, le
dos contre le banc et les pieds appuyés sur la balustrade. À la suite de
[TRADUCTION]
LA COUR:Je vous déclare coupable d'outrage commis en présence de la
Cour.
B.K.: Dans l'cul, maudit niochon.
LA COUR: Et je vous condamne à une peine d'emprisonnement de six mois à
purger consécutivement à toute --
B.K.: Va chier.
LA COUR: ... que vous purgez présentement.
B.K.: Épais.
LA COUR: Emmenez-le d'ici.
B.K.: Hostie d'épais.
FIELD: Je pense que la comparution de ce témoin n'a pas beaucoup aidé ma
cause.
LA COUR: Ça semble effectivement avoir été le cas.
FIELD: Je n'ai pas d'autre témoignage à présenter.
LA COUR: D'accord. Désirez-vous présenter quelque argument?
AUCUNE RÉPONSE AUDIBLE
LA COUR: En ce qui concerne la dénonciation no 1870787, je libère les
deux accusés.
(...)"
LOL

Je ne sais pas ce qu'en pensent les autres, mais à mes oreilles parisiennes,
les jurons québécois me semblent bien plus doux à l'oreille que la version
anglaise ! Surtout "hostie d'épais", totalement incompréhensible ici !


--
Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
g a b r i e l l e . a l l e m a n d - m o s t e f a i @ t i s c a l i . f r
Lanarcam
2005-04-22 16:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
On 20 Apr 2005 08:10:17 -0700, "retrosorter"
Post by retrosorter
I've seenn the word "niochon" used in Quebecois French used as a
synonym for "imbecile." Does anyone know the etymology of the word?
I can't speak for Quebec, but in France there are a number of
localisms for an idiot that start with the "ni" sound; offhand I can
think of niant and niart, but there are others.
My understanding was that these were related to "niais". That might be
a possible avenue to explore for the Québécois etymology.
Looking for "niochon" on the web, I found this example of the
inventiveness that court translators must sometimes display when
translating the words of some witnesses. This is an except of a
judgment by the Supreme Court of Canada, in the case of B.K.
(Appellant)
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
v. Her Majesty The Queen (Respondent), where the appellant appealed the
decision of a judge who had found him guilty of comtempt of court.
The
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
original text is in English. The French text, below it, is the
translation. The translator transposed the English swear words to
French Canadian ones. He/She must have had some fun working on that
assignment. :)
------------------
"(...)
Factual Background
The appellant was subpoenaed as a Crown witness to a preliminary inquiry
involving a charge of attempted murder against two other accused. The
victim was also subpoenaed but failed to attend the preliminary inquiry.
The appellant attended the preliminary inquiry but refused to be sworn
as a witness. In expressing his refusal to testify, the appellant was
insolent and abusive towards the presiding judge as the following
CLERK: Mr. K., do you want to step into the witness box, please.
B.K.: Okay.
CLERK: You have to stand up to be sworn.
B.K.: Oh, fuck.
CLERK: Please take the Bible in your right hand. Please state your full
name for the Court.
B.K.: B.C.K.
CLERK: Spell your last name.
B.K.: K.
CLERK: Do you swear that the evidence you shall give touching the
matters in question shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
the truth so help you God?
B.K.:Fuck it, man, I ain't testifying.
COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
B.K.: I ain't testifying, man. Fucking charge me. Whatever you fucking
want, man. I ain't testifying.
According to the presiding judge, in his report to the Saskatchewan
Court of Appeal, the appellant then threw the Bible on the floor
immediately in front of the witness box, sat down in the box, sat back,
crossed his arms and put his foot up on the railing of the witness box.
COURT: I find you guilty of contempt of in the face of this Court.
B.K.: Up yours, you dick.
COURT: And I sentence you to a period of incarceration of six months
consecutive to any --
B.K.: Fuck you, you goof.
COURT: ...time now being served.
B.K.: Goof.
COURT: Get him out of here.
B.K.: Fucking goof.
FIELD: I think that my case has not been advanced much by that witness's
attendance.
COURT: That would seem to be the case.
FIELD: And I have no further evidence to call.
COURT: All right. Do you wish to address any argument?
NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE
COURT: With respect to this Information 1870787 I hereby discharge both
accused.
(...)"
----------------------
"(...)
Les faits
L'appelant a été assigné à comparaître, en tant que témoin du ministère
public, à une enquête préliminaire concernant une accusation de
tentative de meurtre portée contre deux autres accusés. La
victime avait
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
également été assignée, mais elle ne s'est pas présentée à l'enquête
préliminaire. L'appelant a comparu, mais il a refusé d'être assermenté
comme témoin. Lorsqu'il a exprimé son refus de déposer,
l'appelant s'est
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
montré grossier et insolent envers le juge présidant l'enquête
[TRADUCTION]
LE GREFFIER: B. K., présentez-vous à la barre des témoins, s'il vous
plaît.
B.K.: O.K.
LE GREFFIER: Vous devez vous lever pour prêter serment.
B.K.: Ah! Câlice!
LE GREFFIER: Veuillez tenir la Bible dans votre main droite.
Veuillez
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
donner votre nom au complet à la Cour.
B.K.: B.C.K.
LE GREFFIER: Épelez votre nom de famille.
B.K.: K.
LE GREFFIER: Jurez-vous que le témoignage que vous allez rendre sur
l'affaire en question sera la vérité, toute la vérité et rien que la
vérité? Que Dieu vous soit en aide.
B.K.: Va chier. Moi, j'témoigne pas.
LA COUR: Je suis désolé, je ne vous ai pas entendu.
B.K.: J'témoigne pas. Accuse moi si tu veux, crisse. Fais ce que tu
veux. Moi, j'témoigne pas.
Selon le rapport transmis à la Cour d'appel par le juge qui
présidait
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
l'enquête préliminaire, l'appelant a ensuite lancé la Bible par terre,
devant la barre des témoins, puis il s'est assis, les bras
croisés, le
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Jean Dufresne
dos contre le banc et les pieds appuyés sur la balustrade. À la suite de
[TRADUCTION]
LA COUR:Je vous déclare coupable d'outrage commis en présence de la
Cour.
B.K.: Dans l'cul, maudit niochon.
LA COUR: Et je vous condamne à une peine d'emprisonnement de six mois à
purger consécutivement à toute --
B.K.: Va chier.
LA COUR: ... que vous purgez présentement.
B.K.: Épais.
LA COUR: Emmenez-le d'ici.
B.K.: Hostie d'épais.
FIELD: Je pense que la comparution de ce témoin n'a pas beaucoup aidé ma
cause.
LA COUR: Ça semble effectivement avoir été le cas.
FIELD: Je n'ai pas d'autre témoignage à présenter.
LA COUR: D'accord. Désirez-vous présenter quelque argument?
AUCUNE RÉPONSE AUDIBLE
LA COUR: En ce qui concerne la dénonciation no 1870787, je libère les
deux accusés.
(...)"
LOL
Je ne sais pas ce qu'en pensent les autres, mais à mes oreilles parisiennes,
les jurons québécois me semblent bien plus doux à l'oreille que la version
anglaise ! Surtout "hostie d'épais", totalement incompréhensible ici !
Tabernacle, les maudits français, n'y comprendront jamais rien.

J'ai entendu un Québecois qui s'étonnait de la vivacité des
français qui dans leurs discours font souvent preuve d'animosité.
Au Québec, selon lui, celui qui parlait comme ça, devait
s'attendre à une réaction physique rapide.

En france, on dit beaucoup de choses, au Québec, on en dit moins,
on réfléchit aux conséquences avant de parler, pas après.

C'est peut etre pour ça que leurs jurons paraissent plus "soft";
Jean Dufresne
2005-04-22 17:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Je ne sais pas ce qu'en pensent les autres, mais à mes oreilles
parisiennes,
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
les jurons québécois me semblent bien plus doux à l'oreille que la
version
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
anglaise ! Surtout "hostie d'épais", totalement incompréhensible
ici !
Tabernacle, les maudits français, n'y comprendront jamais rien.
C'est sûr qu'écrit comme ça, ça a l'air plus doux, et ça démasque un
Français qui s'essaie à jurer en québécois. :)

Ceux des jurons canadiens qui sont, techniquement, empruntés au
vocabulaire religieux n'ont malgré tout rien à voir avec le sens du mot
emprunté. En fait, tout est plutôt dans la sonorité du juron. C'est
pourquoi on tend à les écrire selon le son qu'ils ont acquis en parler
populaire, sonorité dont la fonction essentielle est de véhiculer
l'émotion du locuteur. Par exemple, dans le cas de "tabarnak!", il faut
qu'on sente que ça claque comme un fouet.
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
J'ai entendu un Québecois qui s'étonnait de la vivacité des
français qui dans leurs discours font souvent preuve d'animosité.
Au Québec, selon lui, celui qui parlait comme ça, devait
s'attendre à une réaction physique rapide.
En france, on dit beaucoup de choses, au Québec, on en dit moins,
on réfléchit aux conséquences avant de parler, pas après.
C'est peut etre pour ça que leurs jurons paraissent plus "soft";
Oh, je ne sais pas. Je dirais que c'est plutôt que lorsqu'on essaie
d'utiliser des jurons qui ne nous sont pas familiers, en particulier
dans une langue ou dans une variété de langue dont on ne connaît pas
nécessairement tous les usages populaires, ça fait plutôt artificiel, et
on voit que l'émotion n'y est pas vraiment. Souvent, l'effet est plutôt
manqué. D'où l'apparence de "soft". C'est d'ailleurs probablement vrai
dans les deux sens. Un Québécois qui s'essaie à jurer comme un Parisien
a sans doute l'air tout aussi inoffensif que l'inverse.
--
Jean
Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
2005-04-22 20:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean Dufresne
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
Je ne sais pas ce qu'en pensent les autres, mais à mes oreilles
parisiennes,
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
les jurons québécois me semblent bien plus doux à l'oreille que la
version
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
anglaise ! Surtout "hostie d'épais", totalement incompréhensible
ici !
Tabernacle, les maudits français, n'y comprendront jamais rien.
C'est sûr qu'écrit comme ça, ça a l'air plus doux, et ça démasque un
Français qui s'essaie à jurer en québécois. :)
Ceux des jurons canadiens qui sont, techniquement, empruntés au
vocabulaire religieux n'ont malgré tout rien à voir avec le sens du mot
emprunté. En fait, tout est plutôt dans la sonorité du juron. C'est
pourquoi on tend à les écrire selon le son qu'ils ont acquis en parler
populaire, sonorité dont la fonction essentielle est de véhiculer
l'émotion du locuteur. Par exemple, dans le cas de "tabarnak!", il faut
qu'on sente que ça claque comme un fouet.
Post by Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
J'ai entendu un Québecois qui s'étonnait de la vivacité des
français qui dans leurs discours font souvent preuve d'animosité.
Au Québec, selon lui, celui qui parlait comme ça, devait
s'attendre à une réaction physique rapide.
En france, on dit beaucoup de choses, au Québec, on en dit moins,
on réfléchit aux conséquences avant de parler, pas après.
C'est peut etre pour ça que leurs jurons paraissent plus "soft";
Oh, je ne sais pas. Je dirais que c'est plutôt que lorsqu'on essaie
d'utiliser des jurons qui ne nous sont pas familiers, en particulier
dans une langue ou dans une variété de langue dont on ne connaît pas
nécessairement tous les usages populaires, ça fait plutôt artificiel, et
on voit que l'émotion n'y est pas vraiment. Souvent, l'effet est plutôt
manqué. D'où l'apparence de "soft". C'est d'ailleurs probablement vrai
dans les deux sens. Un Québécois qui s'essaie à jurer comme un Parisien
a sans doute l'air tout aussi inoffensif que l'inverse.
--
D'ailleurs, ça me fait penser que j'ai récemment lu le dernier (je crois)
livre de Fred Vargas (Sous les vents de Neptune) dont une partie se passe au
Canada et je me demandais ce qu'en pensaient les Canadiens, si ça ne faisait
pas trop faux.

Pour moi, la différence qui me frappe et qui me donne cette impression de
"soft" est l'utilisation du registre religieux, alors qu'ici on puise plutôt
dans le registre sexuel, comme en anglais.


--
Gabrielle Allemand-Mostefaï
g a b r i e l l e . a l l e m a n d - m o s t e f a i @ t i s c a l i . f r
John Woodgate
2005-04-22 21:19:51 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.lang.translation that Jean Dufresne
Post by Jean Dufresne
Oh, je ne sais pas. Je dirais que c'est plutôt que lorsqu'on essaie
d'utiliser des jurons qui ne nous sont pas familiers, en particulier
dans une langue ou dans une variété de langue dont on ne connaît pas
nécessairement tous les usages populaires, ça fait plutôt artificiel,
et on voit que l'émotion n'y est pas vraiment. Souvent, l'effet est
plutôt manqué. D'où l'apparence de "soft". C'est d'ailleurs
probablement vrai dans les deux sens. Un Québécois qui s'essaie à
jurer comme un Parisien a sans doute l'air tout aussi inoffensif que
l'inverse.
When I was somewhat younger than at present, we would make fun of
translated French exclamations, such as 'Holy blue!' and 'Name of a
dog!' or even (quel d'horreur!) 'Name of a name'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Peter Twydell
2005-04-23 08:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Woodgate
I read in sci.lang.translation that Jean Dufresne
Post by Jean Dufresne
Oh, je ne sais pas. Je dirais que c'est plutôt que lorsqu'on essaie
d'utiliser des jurons qui ne nous sont pas familiers, en particulier
dans une langue ou dans une variété de langue dont on ne connaît pas
nécessairement tous les usages populaires, ça fait plutôt artificiel,
et on voit que l'émotion n'y est pas vraiment. Souvent, l'effet est
plutôt manqué. D'où l'apparence de "soft". C'est d'ailleurs
probablement vrai dans les deux sens. Un Québécois qui s'essaie à
jurer comme un Parisien a sans doute l'air tout aussi inoffensif que l'inverse.
When I was somewhat younger than at present, we would make fun of
translated French exclamations, such as 'Holy blue!' and 'Name of a
dog!' or even (quel d'horreur!) 'Name of a name'.
In that case I don't know if it's a sign of an approaching second
childhood or never having escaped the first, but SWMBO and I regularly
use translated idioms. From the Dutch as 'I never stood still by it' and
'It says me nothing', for example. The people at one Dutch agency I work
for use 'Ik noem het een dag' [I'm calling it a day] when stopping work.

Daft, but it lightens the load.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!
John Woodgate
2005-04-23 10:07:26 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.lang.translation that Peter Twydell
Post by Peter Twydell
In that case I don't know if it's a sign of an approaching second
childhood or never having escaped the first, but SWMBO and I regularly
use translated idioms. From the Dutch as 'I never stood still by it'
and 'It says me nothing', for example. The people at one Dutch agency I
work for use 'Ik noem het een dag' [I'm calling it a day] when stopping
work.
Daft, but it lightens the load.
Frappez moi rose!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Georges Dufoux
2005-04-24 08:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Frappez-moi rose!
Is Rose fed up with your puns and wants to punnish you?
Can you explain, to me and to Gabrielle probably,'Holy blue!'?
'Saint bleu' is NOT a French oath and you have absolutely NO right to
invent one, pale blood blue! By the way, do you happen to know 'Sky,
my husband'? (the title of a French book on Frenglish)?
'Quel d'horreur' both horrible and terrific you are, indeed! Don't
waste all your gold on this forum, John! With this your 26300th (quoth
Google) pun, you could write a book, by 'J.W.,the pundit of puns'. I
could gooflate it into French.

- -
Regards to pundits - Georges Dufoux
A pun is not an answer proper (ni une réponse propre)
John Woodgate
2005-04-24 09:16:23 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.lang.translation that Georges Dufoux
Post by Georges Dufoux
Frappez-moi rose!
Is Rose fed up with your puns and wants to punnish you?
Can you explain, to me and to Gabrielle probably,'Holy blue!'?
'Saint bleu' is NOT a French oath and you have absolutely NO right to
invent one, pale blood blue!
I didn't invent it; it's an alleged traditional French expletive in
English texts, like the beret, striped shirt, garlic breath and string
of onions are the distinguishing features of a Frenchman. (;-)
Post by Georges Dufoux
By the way, do you happen to know 'Sky,
my husband'? (the title of a French book on Frenglish)?
No, I'll try to find it next time I am in Parisse. We have the
'Franglais' series by Miles Kington.
Post by Georges Dufoux
'Quel d'horreur' both horrible and terrific you are, indeed! Don't
waste all your gold on this forum, John!
I don't: I also appear on electronics newsgroups. Sometimes they have
questions on translation, as well as electronics (and politics and
religion and teleology and...).
Post by Georges Dufoux
With this your 26300th (quoth
Google) pun, you could write a book, by 'J.W.,the pundit of puns'. I
could gooflate it into French.
I have no such aspirations; there are many people far better than me at
puns. Some years ago, you could buy a tee-shirt with the inscription 'A
l'eau, c'est l'air.' This is not a pun, of course, nor a perverse
translation like 'Sky, my husband', but an example of the art of which
Ormonde de Kay was a master. You may have heard of his publication
'N'Heures Souris Rames'.
Post by Georges Dufoux
- -
Regards to pundits - Georges Dufoux
A pun is not an answer proper (ni une réponse propre)
In English, adjectives rarely follow the qualified noun. However, there
is one well-known phrase of that kind in Shakespeare - 'the lie direct'.
(Touchepierre, 'Comme tu l'aimes', Acte 5) There are, I believe also
cases in English heraldic language, which is of course still strongly
influenced by Norman French. (Norman French used to live next door to my
grandparents!)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Mary Cassidy
2005-04-24 13:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Woodgate
I read in sci.lang.translation that Georges Dufoux
Post by Georges Dufoux
Can you explain, to me and to Gabrielle probably,'Holy blue!'?
'Saint bleu' is NOT a French oath and you have absolutely NO right to
invent one, pale blood blue!
I didn't invent it; it's an alleged traditional French expletive in
English texts, like the beret, striped shirt, garlic breath and string
of onions are the distinguishing features of a Frenchman. (;-)
Sacré bleu, non?
--
Mary
John Woodgate
2005-04-24 13:17:02 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.lang.translation that Mary Cassidy
Post by Mary Cassidy
Post by John Woodgate
I read in sci.lang.translation that Georges Dufoux
Post by Georges Dufoux
Can you explain, to me and to Gabrielle probably,'Holy blue!'?
'Saint bleu' is NOT a French oath and you have absolutely NO right to
invent one, pale blood blue!
I didn't invent it; it's an alleged traditional French expletive in
English texts, like the beret, striped shirt, garlic breath and string
of onions are the distinguishing features of a Frenchman. (;-)
Sacré bleu, non?
Evidemment!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Lanarcam
2005-04-24 15:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Woodgate
I read in sci.lang.translation that Mary Cassidy
Post by Mary Cassidy
Post by John Woodgate
I read in sci.lang.translation that Georges Dufoux
'niochon', on
Post by John Woodgate
Post by Mary Cassidy
Post by John Woodgate
Post by Georges Dufoux
Can you explain, to me and to Gabrielle probably,'Holy blue!'?
'Saint bleu' is NOT a French oath and you have absolutely NO right to
invent one, pale blood blue!
I didn't invent it; it's an alleged traditional French expletive in
English texts, like the beret, striped shirt, garlic breath and string
of onions are the distinguishing features of a Frenchman. (;-)
Sacré bleu, non?
Evidemment!
"Holy blue" could be a new Monthy Python, those were wonderful times,
where have they gone?
Do you know the true meaning of sacrebleu?
John Woodgate
2005-04-24 15:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lanarcam
Do you know the true meaning of sacrebleu?
No. Many of these things have a story attached that can last half an
hour in the telling.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Peter Wells
2005-04-25 06:01:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:21:13 +0100, John Woodgate
Post by John Woodgate
Post by Lanarcam
Do you know the true meaning of sacrebleu?
No. Many of these things have a story attached that can last half an
hour in the telling.
Not in this case, it's a bowdlerised form of "sacré dieu". There are
others on the same basis, such as "saprédié". The "bleu" also occurs
in other distorted oaths, such as "palsambleu" (par le sang dieu).


only one p in my real address / un seul p dans ma véritable adresse
John Woodgate
2005-04-25 07:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wells
Not in this case, it's a bowdlerised form of "sacré dieu". There are
others on the same basis, such as "saprédié". The "bleu" also occurs in
other distorted oaths, such as "palsambleu" (par le sang dieu).
Like parsons are alleged to be allowed to say 'Jam and butter the muddy
thing!'
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Georges Dufoux
2005-04-25 07:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Woodgate
Post by Lanarcam
Do you know the true meaning of sacrebleu?
No. Many of these things have a story attached that can last half an
hour in the telling.
Half a minute, you mean: it's a euphemistic alteration of 'sacré' and
'Dieu' (originally: 'par la sacre-Dieu'), as in
'morbleu','ventrebleu','palsambleu'.
Georges Dufoux
2005-04-25 08:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Woodgate
Post by Georges Dufoux
Can you explain, to me and to Gabrielle probably,'Holy blue!'?
'Saint bleu' is NOT a French oath and you have absolutely NO right to
invent one, pale blood blue!
I didn't invent it; it's an alleged traditional French expletive in
English texts, like the beret, striped shirt, garlic breath and string
of onions are the distinguishing features of a Frenchman. (;-)
You forget the baguette of bread under his arm and the 'menage à
trois'. Aren't onions for Spaniards?
Post by John Woodgate
Post by Georges Dufoux
- -
Regards to pundits - Georges Dufoux
A pun is not an answer proper (ni une réponse propre)
In English, adjectives rarely follow the qualified noun. However, there
is one well-known phrase of that kind in Shakespeare - 'the lie direct'.
(Touchepierre, 'Comme tu l'aimes', Acte 5) There are, I believe also
cases in English heraldic language, which is of course still strongly
influenced by Norman French. (Norman French used to live next door to my
grandparents!)
You mean 'Pierre-de-Touche' and 'Comme il vous plaira'; but I bet
it's mock-French again.
'Proper is in the proper place in an 'answer proper', since I
meant: 'strictly so called, genuine'. A literary usage, possibly. Rare
cases indeed. My English grammar also quotes: elect, apparent,errant,
Almighty,immemorial, martial, royal (Princess), spiritual and temporal
(Lords), plenipotentiary. It forgets heraldics: a lion rampant etc.

- -
Georges Dufoux - A vice-pundit (neither elect nor apparent) may look
(respectfully) at a pundit of puns.
John Woodgate
2005-04-25 09:22:29 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.lang.translation that Georges Dufoux
Post by Georges Dufoux
You mean 'Pierre-de-Touche' and 'Comme il vous plaira'; but I bet
it's mock-French again.
I just 'translated ' the English. Play titles are often very different
in other languages; 'Blithe Spirit' is 'Min fru gor igen' in Swedish, in
spite of 'blithe' (sp?) being a Swedish word too.

I don't understand why 'Touchstone' becomes 'Peter of the Touch'.
Post by Georges Dufoux
'strictly so called, genuine'. A literary usage, possibly. Rare cases
indeed. My English grammar also quotes: elect, apparent,errant,
Almighty,immemorial, martial, royal (Princess), spiritual and temporal
(Lords), plenipotentiary.
Of these , only '-elect', I think, appears in more than one phrase
(president-elect, daughter-in-law-elect), and is hyphenated, as are
usually some of the others; heir-apparent, knight-errant, court-martial,
ambassador-plenipotentiary. [Heir]-presumptive should have been
included.
Post by Georges Dufoux
It forgets heraldics: a lion rampant etc.
Not a good idea to forget a lion rampant - it may not forget you!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Georges Dufoux
2005-04-26 07:55:21 UTC
Permalink
John Woodgate , in answer to
Post by John Woodgate
Post by Georges Dufoux
You mean 'Pierre-de-Touche' and 'Comme il vous plaira'; but I bet
it's mock-French again.
I don't understand why 'Touchstone' becomes 'Peter of the Touch'.
A 'pierre de touche'(hence Pierre-de-Touche, a mock-noble name),
is what you call a touchstone.

- -
G.du F.ou X vit ce pundit rampant (and caught punnitis proper, femme
et cesse eau). Quo non descendant?
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